Elizabeth Echingham
- Marriage (1): Sir Thomas Hoo
- Marriage (2): Sir Thomas Lewknor of South Mimms, Hertfordshire after 1420
- Died: Between 1455 and 20 Feb 1464
General Notes:
According to Harl. MS, his 2nd wife was Elizabeth, daughter of William de Etchingham, by whom he had issue, a son (another) Thomas Hoo, mentioned in the will of Lord Hoo as his brother, which will also refers to "my lady Lewkenore my mother in lawe" (sic--step mother), the said Elizabeth Wychingham having married, 2ndly, Sir Thomas Lewkenor.
[Complete Peerage VI:565-7]
Research Notes:
Dear Doug, Charlotte, Cris & everybody else,
Would anyone like to comment on whether you agree this sums up where we
are now on Sir William Echyngham, his wives and children? I think there
are four outstanding problems to be resolved as noted below. I also think
we need to straighten this out before we try and tackle the really
intractable problems of the mysterious Thomas and whether the Wakehurst
and other links are correctly placed.
1. Sir William Echyngham Lord of Echyngham, son of Sir William Echyngham
Lord of Echyngham and Mary Shoyswell, died on 20 Mar 1413, and was buried
in Etchingham, SSX, ENG.
See the discussion under the marriage of Thomas Echyngham and Agnes
Shoyswell for the placement of the Shoyswell wife as this William's mother.
William married Alice Batisford co-heiress, daughter of William Batisford
and Margery Peplesham of Sussex.
Speculative.
Based on Ball (1908) "The Stained Glass Windows of Nettlestead Church" as
cited by Charlotte Smith 23 May 2004.
Ball (1908) gives William Batisford and Margery Peplesham as the parents
of Alice Batisford, he also gives this couple two other daughters Joan
married to Sir William Brenchley and Elizabeth married to Sir William
Fiennes.
The Fiennes/Batisford marriage is well attested. The will of Joan
Brenchley survives and in it she mentions Elizabeth Lewkenor and Thomas
Hoo, her son. This strongly suggests a link between Joan Batisford and
William Enchyngham as Elizabeth Lewkenor was his daughter. In addition,
the will of Thomas Echyngham appoints Sir Roger Fiennes as a supervisor.
In Ball's construction Thomas Echyngham would be the first cousin of Sir
Roger Fiennes.
There are two problems with this construction. Firstly, Joan Brenchley's
will is dated 1453 some 50 years after her supposed sisters died.
Secondly, Margery Peplesham's IPM only mentions Elizabeth Fiennes as an
heir. If Joan and Alice were Elizabeth's full sisters then they would have
been co-heirs. Therefore either they are not sisters at all but have some
other blood relationship, or they are half-sisters with Elizabeth by
Margery Peplesham and Joan and Alice by a second wife.
THIS IS AN OUTSTANDING PROBLEM
Children from this marriage were:
+ 2 F i. Elizabeth Echyngham .
+ 3 F ii. Joan Echyngham .
William next married Joan Fitzalan, daughter of Sir John Fitzalan Baron
Arundel 1st and Eleanor Maltravers Baroness Maltravers de jure, after 25
Sep 1395.
This marriage appears in CP VI: 567 (Hoo) and MCS 88-9.
Children from this marriage were:
+ 4 M i. Sir Thomas Echyngham Lord of Echyngham was born about 1401,
died on 15 Oct 1444, about age 43, and was buried in Etchingham, SSX,
ENG.
+ 5 F ii. Joan Echyngham was born before 1 Sep 1404.
-----SECOND GENERATION (Children)-----
2. Elizabeth Echyngham .
Identification of her father is based on the will of Thomas Echyngham
which describes Dame Elizabeth Lewkenor as his sister. This will also
makes Thomas Hoo a beneficiary & trustee of his will. It is currently
assumed that the Thomas Hoo in the will is the son of Elizabeth Echyngham.
The identification of her mother comes from Ball (1908) "The Stained Glass
Windows of Nettlestead Church" posted by Charlotte Smith 23 May 2004. One
of CP VI: 564 or VI:565(a) mentions that Thomas Hoo's second wife then
married Thomas Lewkenor. C.P. does not identify Thomas Hoo's second wife.
Elizabeth married Sir Thomas Hoo.
See CP VI: 564 or VI:565(a) for sources that make the Thomas Hoo that also
married Eleanor Felton the one whose widow then married Thomas Lewkenor.
However, there is a pedigree which appears in the de banco roll 1469 and
reproduced in "The Genealogist" (1903) and posted 29 May 2004 by Charlotte
Smith, which makes the Thomas Hoo who married Elizabeth Echyngham the one
who also married Eleanor Welles. The second Thomas Hoo is the son of
Thomas above by his first wife Eleanor Felton.
There is a major chronological problem with making it the son who married
Elizabeth Echyngham, namely that Thomas Hoo (Baron Hoo) died in 1454 so
his widow could not have then married Thomas Lewkenor and been the mother
of the Thomas Hoo that appears in the 1444 will of Thomas Echyngham.
THIS IS AN OUTSTANDING PROBLEM
The child from this marriage was:
6 M i. Thomas Hoo died on 8 Oct 1486 s.p.
Elizabeth next married Sir Thomas Lewkenor.
3. Joan Echyngham .
Identification of her parents and spouse from Ball (1908) "The Stained
Glass Windows of Nettlestead Church" quoted by Charlotte Smith to SGM on
23 May 2004. See the comments on her half-sister Joan.
Joan married Sir William Rickhill.
4. Sir Thomas Echyngham Lord of Echyngham was born about 1401, died on 15
Oct 1444, about age 43, and was buried in Etchingham, SSX, ENG.
Parentage appears in many sources including Suckling (1905). He mentions
his mother Joan in his will providing primary evidence he was the son of
Joan FitzAlan.
In his will he refers to his sister Lewkenor, his son Thomas, his godson
Thomas St Leger and his wife Margeret. He also refers to Sir Thomas
Lewkenor, Henry the Prior of Camberwell, Thomas Hoo, Richard Wakehurst
jnr., John Ashburnham, Sir John Fortescue and Sir Roger Fiennes.
Thomas married Agnes Shoyswell.
This marriage appears in some traditional accounts of this family however
Charlotte Smith on 22 May 2004, citing Berry Sussex Genealogy, suggested
that this was incorrect and it was in fact Thomas's grandfather William
who married Marie Shoyswell.
Thomas next married Margaret Knyvett, daughter of Sir John Knyvett of
Mendlesham, SFK and Joan Botetourt, between 1415 and 1424.
The identification of Margaret Knyvett is from Suckling (1905). Cris Nash
posted the relevant parts of the argument to SGM on 18 July 2003.
"Suckling cites 2 charters in which John Knyvet, evidently son of John
Knyvet 'senior', grants (a) the manor of Deenthorp (Northants) with
appurtances in Deenthorpe, Kyrkeby Deen, Bolwyk and Great Weldon and a
piece of land in Tattokleyes (11 Oct 1410), and (b) lands in the town of
Thurning (Hunts) (6 Oct 1411), to Robert Ty, Knight, and his wife Margaret
and their heirs; and (c) a 'charter' of 20 March 1456-/7 -- actually a
deposition endorsed by, among others, Margaret's son Thomas Echingham --
giving an account of the history of the passage of these holdings to
Thomas de Echingham and others (including known eventual heirs of
Thomas's) . In (a) & (b) the named properties are remaindered to John
Knyvet 'senior' and his wife Margaret and, following that, to the
grantor's sisters Katherine and Elizabeth and their heirs."
Children from this marriage were:
7 M i. Sir Thomas Echyngham Lord of Echyngham was born in 1424 and died
on 20 Jan 1482-1483, at age 58. He married Margaret West daughter of Sir
Reynold West Baron de la Warre 6th and Margaret Thorley.
8 F ii. Anne Echyngham died on 7 May 1498, and was buried in Bermondsey
Abbey, SRY, ENG. Anne married John Rogers of Bryanston, DOR then Sir John
Audley Baron Audley 6th before 1456.
Thomas next married Margaret Wife of Thomas Marney after 1430.
Highly speculative.
See C 146/112 and C 1/22/16 which refer to "Margaret, that was the wife of
Thomas Echyngham, knt., and late the wife of Thomas of Marny, knt."
If Thomas Echyngham married Margaret Knyvett and then Margaret, the widow
of Thomas Marney then it must have occurred after 1430 when Sir Thomas
Marney died.
C 24/41 posted by Charlotte Smith 24 May 2004 provides some circumstantial
support to this theory in the sense that it provides for dower for Thomas
Echyngham's widow with those properties then going to his son Richard.
Thomas Echyngham's son & heir Thomas is only mentioned in relation to
other properties so this chancery suit may indicate that Richard was the
son of a second wife of Thomas Echynham.
There is also C 1/29/35 which is a claim by Richard Echyngham's widow for
her jointure.
"Elizabeth, late the wife of Richard Echyngham, esq., daughter of John
Gernegan, esq. v. Margaret Echyngham, mother of the said Richard.: Manors
of Kessingland and Blaungeard: petitioner's jointure.: Suffolk."
Note that Kessingland and Blaunden formed part of Margaret's dower and
according to C 24/41 were to go to Richard Echyngham after her death. From
C 1/29/35 above it can be seen that Richard's mother Margaret outlived him
and his widow then sued for her dower from her mother-in-law.
Further research is required into the antecedents of the manors of
Barsham, Blanchaudes and Kessingland and the advowson of the church of
Barsham in Suffolk.
It is also not clear who is the mother of Anne Echyngham above, she also
could have been a daughter of Thomas Echyngham's second marriage.
THIS IS AN OUTSTANDING PROBLEM
The child from this marriage was:
9 M i. Richard Echyngham died between 1460 and 1476. Richard married
Elizabeth Gernegan, daughter of John Gernegan.
5. Joan Echyngham was born before 1 Sep 1404.
Described in PA2 as "daughter, it is said" suggesting this is from the
Wiltshire Visitation and has no other evidence. Note this means the
exisitence of both daughters named Joan is from secondary sources known to
have errors.
THIS IS AN OUTSTANDING PROBLEM
Joan married Sir John Baynton of Falstone in Bishpston, WIL before 1439.
Louise 1
Events
• Will, 20 Aug 1444. Will of Thomas Echyngham, knt.
In the name of God Amen. I Thomas Echyngham, knight, of sound mind this 20th of August 1444 make this will. Firstly I bequeath my soul to almighty God, Blessed Mary and the holy Ghost, my body to be buried in the Echyngham vault near my mother Joan. A number of religious bequests. Item to Thomas SeintLeger my godson? [filiolo meo] 50 marks. The residual to my wife Margaret [uxori mei], Sir Thomas Lewkenor, Dame Elizabeth Lewkenor my sister [sorori mei], my son Thomas Echyngham [filio meo], Henry the Prior of Camberwell, Thomas Hoo, Richard Wakehurst jnr. and John Ashburnham whom I constitute my executors. I appoint Sir John Fortescue and Sir Roger Fiennes as my supervisors of this my will.
• Will, 21 Mar 1450.
• Probate, 20 Feb 1464. 2
Elizabeth married Sir Thomas Hoo. (Sir Thomas Hoo was born about 1370 and died on 23 Aug 1420.)
Elizabeth next married Sir Thomas Lewknor of South Mimms, Hertfordshire, son of Sir Roger Lewknor and Margaret Carew, after 1420. (Sir Thomas Lewknor of South Mimms, Hertfordshire was born before 8 Sep 1392 3 4 and died in 1452 5.)
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